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**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 02:28 AM
I would like to install an express vu system myself, but i'm wondering if there is another good way to ground the system besides using a grounding rod, since it is not included in the installation kit.

Any idea ?


tank

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tank:
I would like to install an express vu system myself, but i'm wondering if there is another good way to ground the system besides using a grounding rod, since it is not included in the installation kit.

Any idea ?
tank<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can buy a SURGE protector, connect the Satellite cable to the protector and connect another cable to your satellite input.
Very small signal loss.
The surge protector also protect your telephone line which connected to your receiver too, should there be a lightning struck your telephone pole.

You can see it here: http://www.thebrick.com/pages/CSCTV160.php?tracking_nav=MAIN



[This message has been edited by Xpress 2000 (edited 09-03-2001).]

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 03:27 AM
I picked up some AWESOME satellite cable from Future Shop about a week ago and it comes with the coax AND a seperate ground wire! It was only $17 or $18 for 50 feet too!

Hook one end to an un-painted piece of metal on your dish and the other to the main ground wire in your house (located wherever your electrical panel is) and voila!

Milky

peternm22
09-04-2001, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xpress 2000:
You can see it here: http://www.thebrick.com/pages/CSCTV160.php?tracking_nav=MAIN <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I looked at that link. The surge protector protects up to 940 joules. I don't know how many joules lightning is, but it is a lot more than that!! If lightning struck nearby, the surge protector would be useless.

Peter

Edit: Just to clarify, by "nearby", I mean on phone lines near your house.

[This message has been edited by peternm22 (edited 09-04-2001).]

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peternm22:
I looked at that link. The surge protector protects up to 940 joules. I don't know how many joules lightning is, but it is a lot more than that!! If lightning struck nearby, the surge protector would be useless.

Peter

Edit: Just to clarify, by "nearby", I mean on phone lines near your house.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 940 joules meant output power.
You misunderstood.



[This message has been edited by Xpress 1999 (edited 09-04-2001).]

MrVH
09-04-2001, 04:27 AM
Ok... having recently went through a satellite grounding refresher course I guess I'll respond...

These instructions are based on Canadian standards.

Firstly, there are two ways to ground your system. Number 1 is Internally (affixed to the house), number 2 is Externally (not affixed to the house). Secondly, there are two items (according to standards) to ground, the coaxial cable and the actual dish.

Number 1 ('internal' mount):

Coaxial:
To ground the coaxial cable you must install a ground block within the cable run and run #14 copper wire (green coated) to a common ground point, for example, metal plumbing, main ground rod, meter box, etc. Do not put in a separate ground ROD unless you plan to bond that rod to the main house ground rod. Not bonding to the main rod is VERY dangerous, much more so than just not grounding. If you will be using a ground rod standards indicate at least a 6' ground rod.

Dish:
To ground the dish the standards tell us to use #6 (huge!!) ground wire and bond one end to the dish mounting post and the other to the main ground of your house, for example, metal plumbing, main ground rod, meter box, etc.

The reason why I emphasized 'the standard' is because 'the standards' are totally ridiculous in todays world. Why? Read on:
In order for the dish to be ground some metal portion of the dish must be in contact (or 'bonded') to the post and/or bonding block. This is not possible with today's mini-dishes as the metal 'mesh' of the dish is encased within a nonconducting composite. Therefore the dish is NOT grounded, even if you follow Canadian standards. You would have to drill a hole through the dish and even then you may not be correctly grounded.

The grounding standards are still based on big dish installations and have absolutely nothing to do with composite mini-dishes.

Conclusion: Grounding the dish itself is an illogical exercise.

Number 2 ('external' mount):

Coaxial:
TWO ground rods minimum 6' each must be placed 3 metres apart and bonded with #6 ground wire. you then place the ground block within the coaxial run and run #14 copper wire (green coated) back to one of the inserted ground rods. Do NOT bond these ground rods to your house main.

Dish:
#6 ground wire to one of the inserted ground rods, BUT again, read above. It's an illogical exercise.

[This message has been edited by MrVH (edited 09-04-2001).]

peternm22
09-04-2001, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xpress 1999:
The 940 joules meant output power.
You misunderstood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, that may be so. But there IS NO WAY that surge protector could protect against a direct lightning strike on the dish. These surge protectors are not designed for lightning. Grounding the dish is the best way to go.

Although the surge protector can be useful for small surges.

Peter

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xpress 1999:
The 940 joules meant output power.
You misunderstood.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, no.
940 joules is the amount of energy it can absorb from a surge & still protect the connected equipment.
(I have no idea whether it's enough to contain a lightning strike or not - I'm guessing not)

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 04:47 AM
Here's a thought, if your dish is struck by lightning, does it really matter if it's grounded or not? I think you would have bigger problems if that happens. I have never grounded my dishes and wouldn't even bother in the area I live in. We don't get rain that often.

peternm22
09-04-2001, 05:02 AM
I did some research. I found this page: http://www.weatherwise.org/qr/qry.lightningpower.html

It doesn't have anything to do with electronics equipment, but it does state how many joules lightning has.

"The energy input in a typical 3-mile long lightning channel is estimated to be one billion to ten billion joules."

I don't think that surge protector will do much good against that http://www.kusat.com/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Peter

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peternm22:
Ok, that may be so. But there IS NO WAY that surge protector could protect against a direct lightning strike on the dish. These surge protectors are not designed for lightning. Grounding the dish is the best way to go.

Although the surge protector can be useful for small surges.

Peter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's say your dish is grounded, but what if lightning travels too slow through your dish then via the groud wire? Electric current may find your signal cable more easy to go through? please educate me.

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 05:44 AM
Quote
Conclusion: Grounding the dish itself is an illogical exercise

MrVH, with all your wisdom, can you tell me why if grounding is so illogical(and I agree,)why starchoice has singled out this procedure for qualification of dish ownership in the simple satellite plan. And if this was such an important step then why would they would wash their hands with apartment dewellers. They have no problem with selling them "their" system but won't allow them to participate. This sounds like a two tier satellite care system. The feedback I am getting at the box stores indicate that any confusion at the sales level will not be tolerated, therefore the competitors unit will be recommended. Can anyone say 5100?.

OrdinaryGuy
09-04-2001, 05:48 AM
I've been using an ungrounded satellite dish for about 6 years without a problem. When the electronic store guy tried to sell me a $70 surge protector to protect my $99 ($0 after rebate) refurbished eVu 2700 it was all I could do to stifle my disbelief and politely say no. Then he sold it to the family next to me who were buying their first dish &lt;sigh&gt;.

My question is this. Has anyone had any _actual_ personal experience where a surge protector made a difference, or is all of this just a third-hand "I got a friend who this happened to" urban legend? If lightning strikes your dish and your house burns to the ground, what use is your receiver anyways?

peternm22
09-04-2001, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xpress 1999:
Let's say your dish is grounded, but what if lightning travels too slow through your dish then via the groud wire? Electric current may find your signal cable more easy to go through? please educate me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm no expert when it comes to electricity, I just know a well grounded dish (or similar protection) will help prevent lightning damage a lot more than a simple surge protector. You'll have to get someone with more expertise than me to educate you. I am also not an expert at grounding, but done correctly it is one of the best ways to prevent lightning damage.

Peter

Edit: OrdinaryGuy, this is a rare occurrence, but still can be a problem. It's mainly to give people peace of mind of knowing that they have protection against lightning.

[This message has been edited by peternm22 (edited 09-04-2001).]

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peternm22:
I'm no expert when it comes to electricity, I just know a well grounded dish (or similar protection) will help prevent lightning damage a lot more than a simple surge protector. You'll have to get someone with more expertise than me to educate you. I am also not an expert at grounding, but done correctly it is one of the best ways to prevent lightning damage.

Peter

Edit: OrdinaryGuy, this is a rare occurrence, but still can be a problem. It's mainly to give people peace of mind of knowing that they have protection against lightning.

[This message has been edited by peternm22 (edited 09-04-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were right! But grouding is a peace of mind not a garantee.

Surge protector is less effective than grouding!

Quoted from HOWSTUFFWORKS.com
"strike, but where lightning is concerned, the strike path is not predictable.
Surge protectors will save your electronics (tv, vcr, etc) if lightning strikes your power line. Again, No way! Surge protectors provide protection for power surges in the line from the power company, but not for lightning. To really guard against strike damage, you need a lightning arrester. The arrester uses a gas filled gap that acts as an open circuit to low potentials, but becomes ionized and conducts at very high potentials. If the lightning hits the line you are protecting, the gas gap will conduct the current safely to the ground. "

MrVH
09-04-2001, 07:29 AM
First of all, nothing short of a lightning arrester is going to save you from a lightning strike (as the previous posts instructs)... oh and by the way, if lightning does hit your house, your surge protector will be the last thing on your mind. My neighbors house in Grande Prairie, AB was hit by lightning and it blew their living room away. Nada... zip... no more.

Secondly...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Has anyone had any _actual_ personal experience where a surge protector made a difference<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have had a few customers with Panamax surge protectors who have had their equipment saved. I also have customers who have NOT been saved, BUT the warranty which comes with the surge protectors bought them all new equipment.

Thirdly...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just know a well grounded dish (or similar protection) will help prevent lightning damage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I have stated, it is impossible to ground the dishes in their current states. Period.

Fourthly...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>why starchoice has singled out this procedure for qualification of dish ownership in the simple satellite plan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's called liability DG, and if you owned the company you would do exactly the same thing. The STANDARDS say what they say. For liabilities sake, if Star Choice is going to own the dish they assume the liability and therefore must ensure their installers meet code.

If you went to the seminars you will know (because the same guys did yours as mine) that they are in the planning stages of what will be required. They will be taking the information they receive from their dealers in the seminars back to the CSB (Canadian Standards Board) and show them how silly it is to require the grounding of the dish. They can state, "Hey we've talked with professional satellite dealers and electricians across the country and they all agree, the MINIdishes can't be grounded. Please change your antiquated rules/standards please". This was stated in the seminars I attended.

IF the CSB will not change their standards then for liabilities sake, Star Choice MUST instruct their installers to ground the dish. READ that previous sentence again... must instruct. End of story. (get it?)

[This message has been edited by MrVH (edited 09-04-2001).]

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 12:31 PM
When visiting my sister in Minnesota, a latenight thunderstorm hit and a tree in their yard was hit, not their dish or antenna. Their RCA receiver was fried because the air became electrically charged from the lightning and the charge came in through their co-ax. The vcr connected to their antenna in another part of their house was also fried. It appears that you don't need a direct hit to have problems.
My co-ax is grounded to an external ground rod and I use an APC Office 280 ups and surge protector on my entertainment unit. It has surge protection for electrical, co-ax and telephone lines. It also supplies electricity to all my units in the event of a power outage for a short term. Haven't had to reprogram my vcr of vcu switchbox since I put this unit on.

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 12:55 PM
Hey

My thoughts on grounding your dish. The only reason you'de ground your dish is to minimize your chances a getting struck by lighting. Usually static is responsible for attracting lighting strikes. By grounding you dish it causes the static on your dish to be dissapated, there by not attracting lighting to your dish. It could still hit your dish even if it is grounded. By having your dish grounded it's not going to channel all the energy through the ground wire, it will burn that wire like there was no tomorrow. So in short, If your house is struck by lighting, I hope your not in it!! Grounding your dish is a good Idea.

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 01:06 PM
I've read somewhere that grounded or not if a lightning strikes your belongings you are cooked. Way too much power for the size of the cable,or rod. They were saying that the ground help to dissipate the static charged let say around your antenna,that static charge is what attracts the lightning.
True or not I do not know,but that make more sense than trying to push 100,000,000 volts through a #14 wire....

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 01:10 PM
Good article on grounding a dish here. http://www.dbsforums.com/reviews/tech1_5.html

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 01:54 PM
here is a link to Panamax. Great video !!! http://www.panamax.com/images/video/ovvideo.asp


Some more info to read
http://www.panamax.com/literaturetechnical/literature.asp?littype=TechnicalArticles

Sparky
09-04-2001, 02:33 PM
Nice try by a lot of people with differing opinions. You would have no protection in the event of a direct lightning strike on your home or equipment. Your best bet is to have adequate insurance coverage to look after outside dishes and audio/video equipment in your home. The odds of being struck by lightning are about the same as wining the national lottery. However do not press your luck when a severe storm approaches....it just may be your lucky day!

sam2
09-04-2001, 02:56 PM
Tank , dont worry about grounding your dish. Just make sure your insurance is paid up. My dish is been up 5-6 years without a problem and we get many thunderstorms in Southern Ontario. If you get hit, ground or no ground, surge protector or not you will be calling your insurance agent for a cheque to replace everything electronic in your house.

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 05:24 PM
tank you guys for your help, it is greatly appreciated, and i'm very happy about the number of answers i got.

tank

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sam2:
Tank , dont worry about grounding your dish. Just make sure your insurance is paid up. My dish is been up 5-6 years without a problem and we get many thunderstorms in Southern Ontario. If you get hit, ground or no ground, surge protector or not you will be calling your insurance agent for a cheque to replace everything electronic in your house.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, sometimes I even got a death wish that I got hit and insurance replaced all my obsolete equipment with up-to-date ones. :-)

**DONOTDELETE**
09-04-2001, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baveux:
I've read somewhere that grounded or not if a lightning strikes your belongings you are cooked. Way too much power for the size of the cable,or rod. They were saying that the ground help to dissipate the static charged let say around your antenna,that static charge is what attracts the lightning.
True or not I do not know,but that make more sense than trying to push 100,000,000 volts through a #14 wire.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.kusat.com/forums/images/icons/smile.gif ya quite a bit of juice alright! Would grounding take away the voltage that you sometimes feel when tightening the cable ends? I think my elliptical is plastic , so it's bound to look like it was microwaved if hit by lightening!

dishguy
09-04-2001, 09:17 PM
Grounding properly has other benefits than just the reduction of dish static build up to reduce the chance of direct lightning strike.
If you aren't tied properly into your houses common ground you create another path for the static build up in other electrical appliances to get to ground.
If you put a sepperate ground other than the common ground the static from other equipment will take the easiest route to ground. If it is the 4 foot rod you put beside you're house all static build up will feed back through the receiver in order to get to ground.
This is why it so important to tie any exterior grounds to your common house ground.
No ground, is better than an isolated one, as far as your equipments health is concerned.